Some readers of my blog (and consequently my facebook feed) know that I pastor a church in Minneapolis called Solomon’s Porch and that I was one of the early “conspirators” in the emergent village network of which I am still part of.
You might also know that I have never been fond of the “emerging church” language that is often used to describe the kind of Christianity and faith communities many of us are working hard to form. But, the term “emerging church” is the common parlance. And, much of my work and church are seen as quintessentially emerging church. So, the fact that we don’t use the term for self identity is not really the point.
The point is that when folks like John Piper use the word, he is referring to the likes of me and my friends. I get that.
Below is video of a response John Piper gives to a question asking him to comment on the “emerging church”. His unfortunate, but too familiar to my own past, response is something I would like to comment on (oh, how blog-like of me).
First, let me suggest that if what you hear in the video makes you more interested in the kind of Christianity John is condemning, let me assure you there are many places to connect with it – and its demise has been greatly exaggerated.
John’s comments might be a “karma kick-back”. And maybe we deserve it.
I think 10-15 years ago too many of us, including me, were too quick to suggest that some expressions of Christianity didn’t care about relationship and only truth. And we did so with a look and tone of smug indignation and pride.
And, we were foolish to suggest that the moral failure of conservative pastors was due to their bad theology.
And, we were uninformed to suggest that certain expressions of faith were only for a select demographic of elites.
And, we were hack futurists in declaring that those expressions of church would be gone in 10 years.
We were, of course, wrong.
And so is John.
We tell ourselves that we were wrong, in great part, because of being immature, rash and uninformed. “That was the kind of stuff people in their 20′s say” we console ourselves.
Whatever the cause, I am glad to know that we, many of us anyway, have outgrown it. I am sorry for the unnecessary stress we created in people. I am sorry we hurt people’s feelings and insulted people knowingly and unknowingly. I want to not do that again. I want to be more gracious and helpful than that.
I want to blame my youth and ignorance for such behavior. Maybe that was the reason. But John shows us that there may be other reasons for behaving in such ways. I just hope those reasons don’t find me again.
I am so glad we ran our mouths in the years before youtube. How embarrassing would it be to have put our thoughts out there for just anyone to see?
Here is to a better next 10 years for us all.
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Amen and mea culpa – thank God for grace
Watch the video without sound. His body language says a great deal.
Reactionary distain is not a virtue no matter how much one may champion “the truth.”
Humility, however, is. A good deal more humility is what we need from leaders like Piper.
His prophecy may well be correct; if so there will be a new but different emergence afoot. But if he’s wrong, how does his appeal to the Bible instruct the faithful to respond? Which of his elders or followers shall be the first to stone him? (Deut. 18.20-22)
it saddens me that people can be so condesending towards one another on issues of faith.
yes truth is very important. we should all seek truth. but Jesus was very relational. I don’t agree that we have to set aside our relationships to find truth. i think they go hand in hand.
thanks for your humility.
Oooh! You used the word “karma” in the title of this post! You MUST be a heretic!
Other than the prediction for the future – how would you refute the charges he makes?
Obviously some charges are broad, and the emerging movement is quite diverse in it’s belief systems – but he levels a basic charge, a stepping away from truth in favor of relationships.
As for stoning him if he’s wrong…that would only be if he’s claiming to be a prophet. Everyone is entitled to his opinion…and even Doug isn’t claiming that he should be stoned for being wrong 10 years ago.
“I want to blame my youth and ignorance for such behavior. Maybe that was the reason. But John shows us that there may be other reasons for behaving in such ways. I just hope those reasons don’t find me again.”
Perhaps careful observation of the movement, a in depth knowledge of Scripture and observations of similar movements throughout history.
Perhaps.
I don’t understand how truth and relationships can be in competition with one another. I don’t think Piper would ever suggest we can know truth outside of a relationship with God, so why would he think that we can know truth outside of our relationships with one another, God’s people? It seems that Jesus was all about relationships–they were the means through which people would find the way, the truth, and the light. They still are. How can you talk about truth with someone outside of the context of a relationship? How can you call something a relationship if it’s based in something other than truth?
I understand the dichotomy he’s trying to set up, but it’s a false one. We recognize truth because of our relationships. I don’t think one can exist without the other.
Carla:
Which truth do you discover in relationships?
What Piper said doesn’t make sense. I find God in relationship, I find hope in the conversation and a lot people are today in my church because of that.
Hope we can have 50 Solomon’s Porch in 10 years in America! We will have a thriving and different Christianity!
John AKA PastorBoy, I removed your previous comment because it contains gossip, slander and personal untruths. You are more than welcome to re-post your comment with editing.
You may want to repost your comment about ethnicity, as example.
But you might want to check-out http://www.erchurch.org/ first.
Aside from the dripping sarcasm, his description sounds like a wonderful community that I’d be happy to be a part of.
PastorBoy: John 13:34-35, Rom. 7:5, 12:4, 12:10, 12:16, 13:8, 1. Cor. 12:12, 12:27, Eph. 4:2, 4:32, Col. 3:13, 3:16, 1 Thess. 5:11, Heb. 3:13, James 4:11.
To me, the New Testament makes it quite clear that our faith is to be lived out in relationships. I think that’s because something godly happens in relationships. I am a person of faith because of the people God has brought into my life. I know God because I know God’s people.
I’m RICH!
John Piper looks sort of like Hitler in this video still.
Carla – I would add the last third of John 17 which is Jesus’ prayer for us (all future believers). Jesus is has been praying that we come into relationship with Him — as He is in us. Contrary to what JP is preaching, the relationship comes first. Truth (in the person of Jesus) comes along with it. If we start with some human-carved truth we end up somewhere else.
Doug’s thoughts are good here!
I want to throw towels and then rocks. Yet, I hear the words of Jesus, the words of Paul, the words of Micah. It’s difficult to love people who want to hate you, and yet I hear, “What does the Lord require of you?” I hear John write, “He who doest not love does not know God.”
Yet, somehow we’ve created a sense that we can hold truth and yet not love; I think we in the ‘emergent church’ friendship can be equally guilty. So, let’s posture ourselves to the biblical text; at the end of our lives, our detractors will tell us thanks for living the biblical text faithfully in front of them.
Thanks again for the challenge Doug.
Doug, it was a great priviledge and a fun ride to be with u in these early days u speak of. Great post. Takes us back to the cross to crucify ourselves and god knows we all need it.
There is phrasing in the recovery movement that I think can be helpful when talking about relationships and truth. Often people speak of What they have found out in their lives, how things have worked for them and how they have reacted to things. “We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us.” This simple and humble language doesn’t say one person is the sole arbitor or holder of truth and knowledge. It is through community and relationships that we discover more and more.
A difficulty this can raise is the objectiveness of truth. Is there things that are the way they are no matter who agrees or disagrees, or is everything subjective to how people feel and think at a given time? I think this problem stems from people not recognizing that every generation has had to wrestle with truth and doctorines and how to understand things. Doctorines are a way to try to grasp who God is and why God does what God does. I think people get mixed up and start thinking that if there is some problem with a doctorine then there is some problem with God, when really it is our understanding that is changing. God is the I AM, the unchanging, and no one else and nothing else has that quality. It is easy for me to think God must not be real if I am challenged with an idea that goes against my understanding of God. But I have to remember that no matter what I think of him, God is who God is.
I’m sad Mr. Piper felt it necessary to make claims about the morals of people he has no connection to.
Even if he had accurate info (which I doubt) he’s basically admitting to indulging in gossip and repeating it for the sake of making people look bad.
it’s a classic rhetorical strategy, attack the morality of who you perceive as your enemies.
makes me wonder if Mr. Piper is not so much a precise thinker as he is given to lovely rhetorical flourishes.
eloquence doesn’t equal exactitude.
This may interest you… http://ow.ly/1rM37
I don’t see what the problem is here folks!
John Piper is in fact being much more gracious here than many in telling the truth about the Emergent crisis. Two very telling issues that are related: Immorality that is tacitly approved of which (I believe)is associated with a low view of the Bible and doctrine. The freedom and types of worship are not at issue; the problem is with a devaluation of Christian morality that can fall into license or cheap grace.
The immorality we see in the larger church culture always follows a personal or corporate devaluation of scripture. In other words, the emergent church is certainly not alone, many evangelical and mainline churches can share in the blame.
Another point I find quite fascinating is the one John pointed out about the whiteness of the movement. In all the churches that are sympathetic or lean toward emergent that I have visited, people of color are very absent. Maybe that is my community, but that is my personal observation.
My comments here are based on limited knowledge; I cannot obviously speak about all emergent people or their leaders, any more than my friend Doug or Brian McLaren can say things about all ‘fundamentalists’.
re: Nathan- you do not know what he knows, or who he knows. He does roll with Mark Driscoll, so he may have some insider knowledge…
re: Carla, I am still unclear which truth you discover in relationships, but certainly the Christian life must be lived out in relationship. When we are converted, we have a new relationship to God, He is no longer our judge but our Father (as an example) we being His adopted sons and daughters. Jesus commands those who are in that relationship with God to love one another (that is his disciples) as I have loved you. This means that we submit to one another, we build up one another, we share one another’s burdens. To be sure, this should translate to our relationships to those who are outside the church.
So thankful for champions of the faith like John Piper who build their ministry off the bedrock, unchanging truth of the Gospel. Doug has suggested all types of places to connect with people who are looking for subjective, relationally driven “Christianity”…I would suggest a conference that is coming up where you will receive the objective truth of the Gospel and connect with people, who may differ on secondary and tertiary issues, but who come together for the Gospel. Check out http://www.t4g.org. It is an amazing conference where you will truly be impacted in a Hebrews 4:12 kind of way.
Can somebody say: Life of Brian?
Sheesh, Mr Piper.
Thanks Doug……
I cringed a bit when i heard Piper’s vid. Sigh. 10/11 years ago when all this stuff was bouncing around and i was doing a 24/7 open door policy at my house- bit of an organic alternative for those looking for a safe space to heal and dialogue- (andrew can fill ya in on that one if ya want to know more)….. but, the early “convo” really helped in hashing things out. I’m sure i did tons wrong…… but as Rick Joyner used to say, you have to have both… “if there is no crap in the stalls – there is no sheep in the barn”- a lot of “Alternative” stuff was a knee jerk reaction/ perhaps more of an obligatory response on a lot- and truth be told….. IT WAS A NEEDED RESPONSE because there were many gaps in that Nehemiah Wall. Hopefully, i’ve learned a bunch in the process, and hand on heart, probably wouldn’t do it the same way, hind sight being more 20/10 than 20/20. I think as long as we are breathing- we will be contending on some matters… Israel means “one whom contends with G-d” right? In all of it – i want to stay close to the cross on matters and still listening to Holy Spirit speak. (yeah i’m one of those Charis-Mystics) that think it’s a dialogue not a monologue with God- since “My sheep know my voice” thing . I’m still doing my thing, and IN the convo on matters, but i think i’ve just gotten back to some roots on levels, not using the wording (just got tired of explaining what i’m NOT, or what i don’t agree with) but still am diving deeper into God’s sea of love. Praying God massages hearts – we all could use some deep tissue work there eh?
Blessings,
cat
Well thank the heavens that we have you as an example of one who is free from immorality, pastor boy! There is hope for all of us sinners!
I can read between your suggestive lines and you and Piper’s gossip mongering and “insider knowledge” make me want to puke.
Doug,
So sad to hear stuff like this. It hurts when someone says stuff like that about stuff you and I care deeply about. It at least hurts me, and makes me feel disappointed and sad. It certainly does not draw us closer or help us care more for each other.
Anyways you have my love, prayers and full support! (we have never met but I follow you and your friends closely and with much joy, and hope for a better tomorrow)
/Daniel in Sweden
re: pastorboy.
actually, I do. But, thanks for your perspective on things.
There is no crisis of immorality particular to the “emerging church”.
That’s a trope to marginalize voices people simply don’t want to deal with.
Pastorboy: Seems like you know exactly what I mean. Couldn’t have said it better myself!
I would also add this from 1 John 2:9-11: “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.”
Every relationship I have points me to this truth.
I am so glad we ran our mouths in the years before youtube. How embarrassing would it be to have put our thoughts out there for just anyone to see?
Are you going to stop anytime soon?
btw in the early 90′s I hear you preached a really good sermon. Someone actually has a recording of it. Is that what you mean by ‘running your mouth off’?
Piper’s breaking down the false dichotomy.
- relationship doesn’t triumph truth.
- they go together as Piper’s saying
- for e.g. if you’re sleeping around with 2 partners, that’s not right.. you can’t justify both relationships by denying the truth.
Mr. Doug Pagitt, if you really do believe in what you believe in, then pray and love Dr. John Piper. I think you and McLaren should say something nice about John Piper and respect this man who’s old enough to be your father and be appreciative that his “type” of Christianity is transforming people in the thousands. You probably have been in the church long enough to understand Piper’s view…. so why do pretend to try to portray Piper as the bad guy. Both sides have faults, but playing this game to get more publicity, to be divisive, or to convert more people into your “circle,” is not going to appeal to many over the years.
I also read McLaren’s book.
I just don’t understand how he says he doesn’t know why people think he’s controversial…if I came out and said certain beliefs are wrong and potentially violent, and even dangerous…. then of course people will have a beef with it. For e.g.:
- he doesn’t believe in a literal eternal hell and suggests that a belief in hell can create violent people cuz they follow a violent God (John the Baptist type of preachers will have a beef with this)
- he says his type of Christianity is the most mature form of Christianity (I find this statement quite divisive and elitist already).
- he suggests Satan is not a real entity, but more of a personification or a character taken from earlier religions
- he’s strongly against the belief that Revelation is a literal prophetic book about the end times and he thinks this is the reason why there’s war in the middle east (IHOP Christians won’t like this one)
- he believes all religions can be true in the sense that it’s not so much about who Jesus was as to you following what Jesus taught and did which to him was about caring for the environment, peace, and caring for each others’ needs. He even writes a story where in the future, war is of the past and eating meat will be a thing of the past because having too many meat-eaters doesn’t sustain the earth (meat eaters will disagree and athiest who are hardcore environmentalists will have no reason to accept Jesus and God to teach them to be environmentalists).
- he believes the Bible as a collection of stories revealing an evolving human perception of who God is to them and that’s why the God and the events in the Old testament shouldn’t be taken as the most accurate view of who God is (Jews won’t agree).
Of course McLaren’s beliefs become controversial. He basically disrespected the beliefs of the majority of Christians out there. If anything, McLaren should say something respectful to all the other “types” of Christian teachings out there. Then I’ll have more respect for him.
I think Dr. Tim Keller and his rapidly growing church in NYC, Redeemer is a supreme example of:
1) a church that loves, and wants to redeem society, addressing the social issues that affect us today,
2) where guinuine relationship is encouraged, where people are free to doubt and ask questions,
3) and at the same time, you don’t have to throw out many of the beliefs we grew up with that helped transform our lives to do the #1 and #2.
Free Tim Keller messages: http://sermons2.redeemer.com/
Sample messages under the ‘Can I believe’ heading:
- Don’t we all have to find truth for ourselves?
- What should I do with my doubts?…
- Evolution and Science
- How can there be just one true religion?
- Isn’t the God of Christianity an angry Judge?
- Hasn’t Christianity been an instrument for oppression?
- Isn’t the Bible historically unreliable and regressive?
- Why Christians Should Drop Their Religion
- If God is good, why is there so much evil in the world?
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