What did he just say?
About a year ago I was on a radio show to promote a book I had just co-edited called An Emergent Manifesto of Hope. The show was hosted by a fundamentalist (his own descriptor of himself) and turned into this weird interaction about hell.
The folks at the show made a youtube of the interview and I have people ask me about it all the time. I had never listened to but today I found a transcript that a guy made of the show. He actually transcribed the entire conversation including ums and inaudibles.
I found it posted on a site where the blogger said “this kind of theology masquerading as true doctrine is scary.” I think he was referring to my theology, but I, obviously don’t find my perspective on this scary, I find the perspective of the interviewer disconcerting. In so many ways this dialog is the reason I wrote A Christianity Worth Believing.
Read it and conclude for yourself, but to me the way he talks about the Bible, strings together verses to make his own conclusions ought to cause pause.
Try not to get too distracted by the guy cutting me off – I can’t imagine how bad this all sounds on the recording.
Here is the transcript -
Intro (Todd Friel): Yes indeedy there is a problem in evangelical Christianity. That’s a bad thing. The good news is there’s some folks called the Emergents who have identified the problem… the problem being: there seems to be no application of the stuff that’s taught in the Bible. It seems to be a rather disconnected sort of faith – bottom line: there appear to be hypocrites and to that, and to all the Emergent folks I say ‘A-MEN’!
This is Way of the Master Radio.
The question then becomes – What do we do now that we’ve diagnosed the problem? There seems to be people who profess a faith in Jesus Christ, but they do not possess that faith. They are not living it.
We agree with the Emergents: That is absolutely pervasive and it is a huge problem. How we go about fixing that is another thing altogether.
We are very happy, and frankly a little surprised . Joining us on the telephone today is Doug Pagitt. You may be familiar with the person’s name – he is one of the … mmm…. leaders. I’m not sure he’d be nuts about that title but he’s definitely one of the higher profile Emergent fellows. He’s the pastor at Solomon’s Porch. You can visit the website: SolomonsPorch.com. You can also visit their website. It’s EmergentVillage.com and he’s with us on the telephone today.
Todd: Doug Pagitt
Doug: Todd Friel. We’re very grateful that you’re coming on the show today. Thank you very much.
Doug: Well thanks for taking a little time for having me on.
Todd: Alright would you, would you agree that we agree there’s something wrong in Christianity that a lot of people don’t act the way they profess. Fair enough?
Doug: Yea, I mean, yea I think that’s true. That’s not really the motivation in my life or the people I hang around with. We’re not uhm, that’s not the prime uh motivator that we have about, you know, the way that we do our church, or the way that we interact with people, but I do think it’s true that many people’s lives stay disconnected from their belief system.
Todd: Then, then speaking as as an emergent fellow, then what is the prime motivator of the emergent movement?
Doug: Uh Uh the prime motivator is to try live well in the world with God, and to invite other people to join in the way of Jesus in the world. So it’s not really trying to fix uhm, struggles that other people, other Christians are having. It’s really trying to join together in what seems to be the uhm active work of God in the world. And uh to invite people to join in that work.
Todd: And what about the afterlife?
Doug: Yea, uhh, I like to refer to it as the forevermore life. Uhm, But yea, I mean, that’s uhm, that’s uh a really important piece of the whole understanding of God is that uh, uh, like at the end of our uh worship gatherings together at our church we say uhm, we recite this uh, this last long sentence out of the book of Jude. And it’s one of those pieces that ends with uhm, with uhm, uhm, calling for the work that God’s gonna do to be now as God has done in the past, does now, and will do evermore. And so it’s this really wonderful notion that the Christian church has always held to – that there’s a sense of the continuation of the continuous work of God.
Todd: Alright.
Doug: And how, you know, how individual people interact in that. I think we best understand that through the – through the resurrection of Jesus. But yeah, that’s what we’re interested in – is inviting people in to participate with God here, as they have in the past. And stay [?] a uhm, uh, a part of the work of God in the world forevermore.
Todd: Alright. I’m going – I’m going to Jude verse 23: “..Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment.”
Doug: Yeah, yeah. It’s helpful, isn’t it?
Todd: Yea, do you think, do you think there’s an eternal damnation for people who are not Christians?
Doug: Yeah, well, I think that there’s.. I think there’s all kinds of … I mean that, that, damnation would sort of be that.. that there’s parts of the uh, life in Creation that seem to be counter to what God is doing and those are the things that are eliminated and removed and done away with. And so I think that’s what damnation is, and so there’s people who want to live out that kind of uhm, wanna have that good judgment – the judgment of God in their life. I mean you know Judge… Judgment in a biblical fashion meaning that God remakes… that God remakes the world.
Todd: OK, Doug, hold on Doug… Doug hold on a second. I have no idea what you just said. Here’s what I think Hell is: eternal damnation, God sends lawbreakers to a place where there’s weeping, there’s gnashing of teeth, a lake of sulpher, the worm never dies, eternal conscious torment. Agree or disagree?
Doug: Disagree.
Todd: What do you think Hell is?
Doug: I think Hell is disconnection and disintegration from God.
Todd: I agree with that also.
Doug: I have NO idea what you mean uh, with those.. uh. Those sound like .. Those sound much more like metaphors than they do like actuality. But I don’t know…
Todd: Well those are the words that Jesus used to describe Hell.
Doug: I know. Oh yeah I know.
Todd: Alright, OK.
Doug: Yes, I know but Jesus [chuckle]but
Todd: So, Doug I….
Doug: But Jesus didn’t use them in a string like that. So you just pulled a bunch of words from Jesus and strung them together in your own way and then made a….
Todd: It’s called systematic theology. Doug, I’m a good Buddist. Do I get to go to Heaven or Hell?
Doug: No, it’s not called systematic theology. It’s called you restating it.
Todd: Doug, I am a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?
[silent pause]
Doug: You, you know this is not an interesting conversation for me. Is this what we’re gonna do? You’re gonna… Your gonna put together false little dichotomies and then ask me to answer one sentence and then interrupt my answers?
Todd: I don’t know what’s hard about the question. I am a good Buddhist, where do I go when I die?
Doug: Well you probably go to the funeral home, but depending on where you’re being born if that’s what you’re talking about.
Todd: No, pastor. I’m a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?
Doug: [laugh] Ok. This is not.. This is just not an interesting or helpful conversation for me to be part of. So if that’s what we’re doing uh, in this conversation, then uhm… It’s.. it. Because what – what you’re asking in this – in this kind of question has to do with a place. Are you suggesting to me that Heaven is actually a place? When you say where do I go, you’re suggesting to me that the reign of God, that the place of God is an.. is an individual PLACE that you go? Is that what you’re suggesting?
Todd: Yes, sir.
Doug: Where, where is that place?
Todd: It’s called heaven.
Doug: Where is it?
Todd: We don’t know where it is exactly right now.
Doug: Then why would you ask a question, “where do I go?”
Todd: Just because I don’t know where it is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Besides sir, this is… This is…this is the core of Christianity..
Doug: Then why would you ask where? Why do you ask where?
Todd: This is no-brainer land, sir.
Doug: It is not no-brainer land. It’s a nonsequiter.
Todd: Sure it is. I’m a good Muslim. Where do you think I go, pastor?
Doug: Where do I go? See here we go again. Now you’re talking about a place..
Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?
Doug: Ok, now THERE’s a different question.
Todd: Alright
Doug: There you go.
Todd: What happens to my soul when I die?
Doug: There you go. And I’m not just.. you know. You’re the guy who wants to be precise about words. That’s why you put sentences together like this.
Todd: Don’t you?
Doug: Yes very much…
Todd: OK
Doug: That’s why when you put together questions like that…
Todd: Alright.
Doug: … and ask them they don’t make any sense.
Todd: I’m a good Muslim. What happens to my soul when I die?
Doug: You are… you interact with God, just as every other human being interacts with God.
Todd: You mean Hebrews 9: “It is appointed to a man once to die and then judgment?”
Doug: Right, yea, that’s interaction with…
Todd: So he gets judged?
Doug: Right, that’s interaction with God.
Todd: Uh huh, and so…
Doug: Yeah.
Todd: What’s… what’s going to happen to the… How is God going to judge the good Muslim?
Doug: Does it.. God’s going to judge the life and repair and restore and heal the life of everybody in the same way. There’s gonna be no difference between what God…
Todd: So the Muslim is ultimately not going to be… go to a bad place. He’s ultimately going to be restored with God when he dies?
Doug: No, there’s going to be no difference between the way God going to interact with you when you die and the way God’s going to interact with a Muslim when a Muslim dies.
Todd: So I wanna put… I wanna put this into my fundamentalist language. What I just heard you say is: There is no difference between the Christian and the Muslim afterlife. God is going to have a good place prepared for both of us.
Doug: No, I… No I didn’t say a place. See, here you go again.
Todd: Ok, a good thing, a good event, a good existence.
Doug: I didn’t say a place. What I said was, the way God’s going to interact with you is the same way that God’s going to interact with everybody. The same experience of all of humanity. God will… God will interact with all of humanity in judgment the same, no matter who you are, or what your parents have taught you, or what you believe.
Todd: (softly) Uhhh…
Doug: Now how a person’s life translates into the evermore, that’s something that .. for one to sit on a telephone conversation and say about … nonexistent actual person muslim as compared to Todd, For me to suggest that I’m gonna tell you how God is going to interact with that individual person. What the result of that is going to be is not at all within the bounds of historical Christianity.
Todd: It’s n. But. n.. Mmmmmm… Doug Pagitt, Solomonsporch.com Actually I think that’s exactly what historical Christianity is about and the Emergents are trying to change that.
Doug: I know you think that’s what it is, but I would suggest to you that’s not at all ….
Todd: Ahh..so I’m, I’m wrong.
Doug: (unintelligible) What I would suggest you do is that I suggest you go and read Acts chapters 16, 17, and 18 as we did out loud in our church last night.
Todd: Yep, I’m happy to do that sir, but Jesus, Jesus said that He’s going to judge and it’s going to be sheep and goat.
Doug: And I’d be… and I think you’d find what the apostle Paul says about what happens to all people in their creation and interaction with God. I think that’s where you’ll find it.
Todd: Uhm, It seems to me that he says very clearly that those people whose sins are not forgiven will be destroyed. They will go to Hell. It will be a terrible day. There will be a judgment on those who have never repented and trusted the Savior.
Doug: What, Now, now, here here, here again Todd I think that….
Todd: That’s simple. That’s foundational. That’s orthodox, and anything outside of that is heresy.
Doug: No it’s not Todd. It’s you stringing togeth.. Todd, it’s you stringing together a series of pop phrases that you’ve heard from the Bible..
Todd: (insert indignant/flabbergasted sound here.)
Doug: and making up your own conclusion to them. That’s what you just did. You can play….
Todd: Well. Pop phrases from the Bible. OK.
Doug: You can play the tape back if you want and watch how you took passages from by my count 4 different biblical passages, strung them together, and made your own conclusion.
Todd: How else do you do it, sir?
Doug: Now if your comfortable, if you’re confortable with that being historical Christianity…
Todd: I am, I am. I am very comfortable.
Doug: I certainly wouldn’t…
Todd: I’m very comfortable. How do you put your theology together?
Doug: Because that’s not what it is.
Todd: How do you do it?
Doug: Well what you do is you read the actual Bible story. You read the actual narratives. You read the actual letters. You read what was actually said and you let it speak for itself. You don’t go chopping it up … into it’s own little pieces, string it together, and make your own conclusion.
Todd: Alright, so let’s just do one where Jesus said there’s going to be sheep and goats.
Doug: The Christian church has condemned that kind of behavior from the beginning.
Todd: OK
Doug: And I had no idea you did that kind of stuff because I’m not familiar with you whatsoever, but that, that is just not..
Todd: Alright. Then let’s… Doug…
Doug: …at all the way that a reasonable Christian person should intereact with the Scriptures.
Todd: Well, ok. That’s… that’s the way it’s been done for a long time, but nevertheless.
Doug: No it’s not the way it’s been done for a long time. See, your people…
Todd: Well you’re the one emerging, not me. OK. Nevertheless, let’s take one verse at a time.
Doug: Well, maybe, but your people, but whatever, I don’t know what stream you’re from, but whatever stream it is that taught you how to interact with the Bible in that way…
Todd: That old fashioned grammatical historical approach.
Doug: …you might want to go back and look at some other way to interact.
Todd: Yea, well no I don’t need a new way. The grammatical historical works just fine for me. Well, nevertheless, let’s just take one verse….
Doug: The grammatical historical method? You’re using the historical method?
Todd: Grammatical historical yessir.
Doug: The grammatical historical method?
Todd: Yessir.
Doug: By taking different passages of the Bible…
Todd: Mmmm Hmmm.
Doug: Stringing them together and drawing your own conclusion?
Todd: Yea, that’s how it’s done.
Doug: I don’t think anyone would suggest that that’s the “grammical” (unintelligible)….
Todd: what. Do you come up with a conclusion first, and then go find verses to support it?
Doug: No, you let the verses tell you what the conclusions are themselves.
Todd: I agree with that.
Doug: You don’t pick from four different places….
Todd: I don’t know what the difference is. OK
Doug: … from four different authors .. string them together and then make your own conclusions.
Todd: Alright. OK. Alright. Sir, let’s just focus on verse: Romans says….
Doug: [laughter] Which one? Let’s out loud… which, which verse? Which?
Todd: Let’s just focus on one, that God says that He’s storing up punishment for those who refuse to repent.
Doug: (unintelligible)
Todd: That’s easy. What do you do, what do you do with that verse, sir. What do you do with all the judgment verses? That Jesus said He’s gonna say “Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.” How do you as an Emergent deal with those verses?
Doug: I think they have all to do with people being, uh, eliminated from what God is doing in the world. So when judgment comes, the judgment verses, all have to do with what judgment is. And what the Bible says judgment is – is to (Korem sp?) in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew. The “korem”, is to uh, is to replace that which is not in agreement with God with that which IS in agreement with God – This is the same notion as the uh, the uh, the fire that …. purifies. Judgment is when God recreates the world in the way that it ought to be. The purpose of judgment is to make the world the way that it ought to be. So, from Genesis all the way through Revelation, the finalization of judgment, is the recreation of the Heavens and the earth.
Todd: OK, now let’s say that we agree on that.
Doug: That’s what it is.
Todd: Who’s going to, who’s going to be in the, in that nice place? A good Buddhist and a good Muslim, will they go there?
Doug: No, see now now, now again you’ve created this… this no…. this idea, which apparently you’re stuck with here, that there are places.
Todd: Well you’ve just described it, sir.
Doug: No I didn’t just describe it.
Todd: You said He’s going to recreate a heaven and earth.
Doug: No I didn’t just describe another place.
Todd. Oh. What is it then?
Doug: It’s the recreation of all that exists.
Todd: Is is a real place? Is it a real thing?
Doug: Here we go again. I mean, I am starting to worry that maybe what you’re, what you’re articulating here (Todd laughs) is the Platonic understanding of the cosmos.
Todd: Are we here? Sir, are we here? Do we exist?
Doug: That really what you’re into here is some kind of a… of a… a dualistic Platonic understanding of the cosmos. I’m beginning to think that maybe .. you’re gonna suggest next that God is distant and removed from the earth.
Todd: Mmmm… In a sense yes, in a sense no, but nevertheless sir, are we here?
Doug: Well that’s because you .. apparently, yea that would be consistent with this Platonic understanding that Heaven is this other place.
Todd: Am I real? Doug, am I real? Do I exist?
Doug: Well I think so, I’ve only heard your voice, but that… we’ve every indication.
Todd: OK. Well that, that’s good, OK good. So we’re, we’re here. This is actual. This is stuff. We, We exist on this planet right?
Doug: Yea
Todd: OK, so when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, what is that going to be if it’s not an actual place?
Doug: It’s a recreated … heaven and earth.
Todd: OK, fine. Who’s gonna be there?
(Silent Pause)
Doug: There?
Todd: (unintelligible mumbling.)
Doug: See, here we, oh boy. Here we go again. This is just not working.
Todd: I agree!
Doug: (laughing) It’s unbelievable. See I have a very difficult time working with the dualistic Platonic, Platonist like yourselves, because I have to be taken back into … remind myself, that rather than following the Jesus narrative, I have to go into Plato, and Socrates understanding of the cosmos, so they can end up with a Heaven in one place, in one sphere, and functioning by one set of rules…
Todd: So Heaven…. Let me, let me, then let me try to understand you sir.
Doug: ….and then the earth, and then the earth in another sphere, functioning according to a different set of rules.
Todd: Then let me try to understand your narrative. Is Heaven and Hell together?
Doug: Unbelievable.
Todd: I agree. It’s unbeleivable sir, you’re right. Is Heaven and Hell, uh, OK so what is it exactly? (laughter)
Doug: (laughter) See you create this context right, and you create this structure…
Todd: Yes because Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you.” OK, well, I don’t know.
Doug: …and then you ask about it as a “where” and a place, and then you say to me, “Would you please define for me what it is.”
Todd: Sir, when….
Doug: I mean, If you’re unclear about it, then maybe you ought to, I mean, you can go look at what Plato or Dante’s understanding of Hell is,.
Todd: Yea, well, I don’t, I don’t, yea…..
Doug:…. because the description you gave… The description you gave was….
Todd: You know I’m not doing that to you sir. I’m not, I’m not doing that to you with those kind of reckless characterizations but nevertheless…
Doug: Yes you are.
Todd: Would you, would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim? Pastor would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim?
Doug: Would I preach at the funeral of a Muslim?
Todd: Yessir.
Doug: I’ve never been asked to preach at a funeral of a Muslim.
Todd: Let’s say you were. Let’s say you were.
Doug: Well, if I have a Muslim friend. If one of my Muslim friends were to die and they asked me to talk to the funeral?
Todd: Mmmmm. Hmmmm.
Doug: Course I would.
Todd: And what hope would you offer their Muslim family?
Doug: Oh, I’d offer them the same… the the… the hope that I offer everybody and that’s reconciliation with God that comes through Jesus Christ.
Todd: Alright, sir. Now you recognize, and, and I’m not gonna sling this around recklessly, but if I understand, IF I understand you correctly…. what you’re presenting is outside of orthodox, historic Christianity. You do ahh, realize that, don’t you?
Doug: No, what YOU’RE suggesting in this phone conversation is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity because it’s riddled with Platonism, and it’s riddled with the cosmology that would never be acceptable to uh, Christians through the ages.
Todd: Like Luther, and Calvin, and Spurgeon, and Whitefield, and Moody? Those guys wouldn’t agree with me, they’d agree with you?
Doug: Yeeaaaa… well, I can’t tell you everything that you believe about things, but if they had to listen to this conversation, I think they’d be terrified by the … [theme music cut off his sentence.]
Todd: I think they’d be terrified too, sir. Doug Pagitt of SolomonsPorch.com. We’ll let everybody decide. Do you understand what just happened here? This is way of the Master radio.
[End transcript.]
October 26th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Doug,
I’m interested in your understanding of judgment as a type of cleansing. I’d never really thought of it this way. I’d like to explore this. Could you point me to some sources that would present your view on the biblical meaning of judgment? Thanks.
October 26th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I’m not a Way of the Master guy and don’t think the rudeness of the host is appropriate. That said, I’m not sure what the point of putting this out there is. While I don’t agree with the moderator’s tactics, his position is not pieced together by strange verses taken out of context. This is a clear cut teaching of judgment, heaven and hell that is balanced in many different places of Scripture. If you disagree with this, explain why. Don’t put up smoke screens thus attacking the questions instead of answering and conversing. Heaven and Hell are traditional understandings and to pretend otherwise to get away from offering a clear belief of your own is a waste on both sides of the phone call.
October 26th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
[...] Try not to get too distracted by the guy cutting me off – I can’t imagine how bad this all sounds on the recording. (Online source) [...]
October 27th, 2008 at 8:42 am
The world view of the “emergent” church is nothing more than relativism pure and simple. They don’t want to deal with absolutes, because with absolutes comes ACCOUNTABILITY!
The emergent’ want to skip merrily through life saying that they are Christian but not feel guilty about their chosen life styles which are clearly un-biblical.
Tell me Doug, if you feel so confident that your emergent world view is correct, what would be your reaction if Osama bin Laden and his crew strolled into your circle of couches and said we would like to be a part of your cohort? Would you accept them or turn them over to the authorities? Your view states that there are many ways to God right? Osama bin Laden and his crew fully believe that Allah justifies what they did at the World Trade center and according to your view you would welcome them. Am I wrong?
What the emergent’ tend to leave out when discussing the attributes of God is that God is just. God owes us nothing and we owe Him everything; the simple fact that God allows us to draw breath is a testament of His grace. God established His law and Christ came to fulfill the law; Matt 5:17. God’s laws are absolute and we can do nothing apart from accepting God’s gracious gift of Christ’s death and resurrection for our salvation period.
Accountability Doug. By the emergent world view we are beholden to nothing but ourselves and how we choose to manifest Christ in this world which is plain and simple blasphemy and denies the very being of the Trinity. Glory be to God the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now and shall forever be.
ACCOUNTABILITY!
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 8:43 am
I did some looking… what verse did Jesus describe hell as “eternal damnation, God sends lawbreakers to a place where there’s weeping, there’s gnashing of teeth, a lake of sulpher, the worm never dies, eternal conscious torment” ? – Todd Friel on what Jesus says hell is. In fact I’d also like to find the verse where Jesus says anything at all about “going somewhere after you die”.
(seriously. Dante would be proud)
October 27th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
benjie Says:…Todd Friel on what Jesus says hell is. In fact I’d also like to find the verse where Jesus says anything at all about “going somewhere after you die”.
Jesus says:
Mt 5:22; ESV
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, You fool! will be liable to the hell of fire.
Mt 23:33; ESV
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
There are two examples for you from scripture, Jesus’ own words.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
In case you were wondering about heaven also:
John 14:2 – 3
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Again Jesus’ own words.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Mark 9:47-48; ESV
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Again Jesus’ own words.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Luke 13:23-30; ESV
23 And someone said to him, Lord, will those who are saved be few? And he said to them, 24 Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us, then he will answer you, I do not know where you come from. 26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets. 27 But he will say, I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil! 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.
Again Jesus’ own words.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Glory be to the God the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit for He alone is worthy of our praise for His gracious gift of His Son Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior who I believe has been raised from the dead and shed His blood for my sins!
And for your’s if only you repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord of your life.
For His glory not mine!
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 27th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10: 8-13
October 27th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Hi Doug.
The idea of eternal conscious torment was one of the things I struggled with in the last few years, and I had to step outside evangelicalism and re-think it. This is what made the most sense to me, and I find your thoughts resonating with it.
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
Best to you & Shelley.
Dana
October 27th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
[...] has posted a transcript of an interview with Todd Friel which he did a year ago, the course of which veered to the subject of the fate of [...]
October 27th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I will be posting the final chapter to my book A Christianity Worth Believing where I deal with some of these issues. But the way the Bible is used by Todd is addressed in another chapter – and for that you have to buy the book.
October 27th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
That’s your response?
October 27th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
tsfGodguy,
You are correct about believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and you will be saved; however if you listen to the interview Doug will not answer when asked where will a good muslim go when he dies. A good muslim will spend an eternity in hell because a good muslim does not believe Jesus Christ is Lord of all.
tsfGodguy Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
That’s your response?
Yes tsfGodguy that is Doug’s typical response, he avoids the question because emergent theology has no accountability! Judgement is NOT a cleansing, we will ALL be judged and only those that truly accept that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life; NO ONE comes to the Father except through HIM! Period! No matter how good you are and no matter how many good things you do even in Jesus name if you don’t believe that Jesus is the ONLY Way He will say depart from Me evil doer!
You see without accountability and fear of judgement Doug and his cohorts can do yoga, light candles, embrace nothingness, pass out books and magazines, justify homosexuality and sing Cum by Yah while not blinking an eye. That, tsfGodguy, is why Doug dodges the hell questions.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 28th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Maury, you may be interested in the following blog entry from Greg Boyd, posted almost a year ago, on Jesus and Osama bin Laden. It’s also got an amazing piece of artwork I used as my desktop for several months.
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/washing-osamas-feet.html
October 29th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Greg,
Matthew 5:43-48
43 You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This is not the point that I was stating. What concerns me is the theology of the emergent’ is accepting of anything that is done in God’s makes you a “christian” therefore what bin Laden did in the name of Allah would be considered ok by the emergent view.
Grace and peace to you,
Maury
October 29th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
So you think approving the mass murder of over 3,000 people is the Emergent view? I mean, seriously?
October 30th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Greg, SbyG is correct that the logical conclusion of Emergent theology on the afterlife (at least, of the kind that Doug apparently believes) means that Bin Laden’s crimes are no big deal, since everything and everyone will be cleansed in the end. Let everyone do what is right in his own eyes, for it all works out in the end. Unless, of course, the Emergent theology is willing to draw at least some line. Be this good, or there is damnation for you. If so, my question is this: what is that line?
October 30th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Maury,
maybe if you had people reading and commenting on your own blog you wouldn’t have to squat on this one using it to rant and rave about a group of people you obviously are too afraid of to actually have a conversation with. Seriously, move along…
October 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Wow, I was going to bow out of this but ok…..
Benji, you asked for verses where Jesus spoke on hell and they were given to you. Instead fo responding, you take a punch at Maury instead.
Doug started a talk and then left it. I do not see the chapter he said he was going to post. I am not interested in taking him up on his offer to buy his book. He has abandoned this instead of adding to the conversation. Fine, that follows suite and is no surprise but (and no I don’t know Maury) there is no reason to take the low road with someone who was and is ready for the conversation.
Listen, this is usual for the normal of how things go.
- An Emergent leader makes a post
- Others have thoughts and share on what could be a conversation (which is suppose to be what they stand for)
- Leader disappears or says some kind of comment of how the other voice is unfair, uneducated, or unloving
- Others left wondering what just happened
- Someone else who will follow that leader no matter what they say comes in and says the other voice is unfair, uneducated, or unloving as some sort of clean up crew since the original voice disappeared.
Doug invited a conversation. Others joined in. Don’t slam them for it.
October 31st, 2008 at 1:43 pm
It really doesn’t seem like very many of you who have commented here have actually engaged in any sort of conversation, or even made the attempt to converse. Conversation involves actually listening, and being open to what the other has to share and teach you. Conversation involves both parties being further educated and enlightened. It seems like many on here have approached this post with an agenda, not seeking to converse, but simply waiting for their turn to share their own opinion.
Sanctified By Grace: Benji asked you to provide biblical examples showing passage about “going somewhere after you die”, but none of your examples actually address the idea of heaven or hell being ’somewhere else’. I’m just not sure where we got the idea that “some glad morning” we’ll “all fly way”.
Sorry if I only added to the arguement, as that certainly wasn’t my point. I just have more hope and desire for the church than to see it destroy itself through slander of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
November 2nd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Doug,
Thanks for posting this. I actually tried listening to the interview and had to turn it off after a few minutes. I found the interviewer to be so unloving that I became nauseated. Some would say that he was being loving by being relentless in his challenges to your position, but I beg to differ. He invited you on for a conversation about what it is you believe, etc. He did not need to agree with you, support your position, and he could have made it clear to his audience that he disagreed, but he could have done that while exhibiting the love of Christ towards you, and from what I could tell he did not. His tone does not come through in the text version you posted. I can’t blame him for his reaction. There are many who have come to the conviction that all theological questions, all doctrine, and all dogma has been figured out and are undeniably clear. Personally I think a great deal of what we have traditionally taken as givens are, in fact, interpretations with long pedigrees that are logically open for debate and evaluation. I do not believe in relativism, but I have come to realize just how difficult it is to wade through the theological givens in one hand and the Bible in the other. If we cannot say “but I might be wrong” then can we say that we really believe? I am inclined to believe Heaven and Hell are places somewhere, but I also recognize that much of what we picture of those “places” come to us from Dante, and he got many of his ideas from Islam – but I could be wrong. I have become increasingly convinced that what “the church” needs is another reformation. I have yet to be convinced that “emergent” means “relativistic” as so many claim. What I can say is that I would rather be wrong in my theology and show grace and mercy to others than be so convinced of my rightness that I actually see being unloving as what God wants me to be. As I understand it, that is what the Pharisees did. On the other hand, I do want to pursue truth, so I study the Bible, I read what others have to say (like your books and others who would disagree with you), and I seek out deep conversations with others. And I frequently say, “but I might be wrong.” Thanks again for the post.
November 3rd, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Matthew 16:24-28
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Wow! I’ve missed a lot that last few days.
First off let me state that one of the things that I dislike about blogging is that you don’t get tone of voice and body language therefore it is hard to judge the demeanor of the person behind the writing. That being said we go forth.
benji Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 8:43 am
In fact I’d also like to find the verse where Jesus says anything at all about “going somewhere after you die”.
jasonbowker Says:
October 31st, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Sanctified By Grace: Benji asked you to provide biblical examples showing passage about “going somewhere after you die”, but none of your examples actually address the idea of heaven or hell being ’somewhere else’. I’m just not sure where we got the idea that “some glad morning” we’ll “all fly way”.
I believe that the scriptures I quoted were quite clear;
Mark 9:47-48; ESV
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
“thrown into hell where…” describes a place.
John 14:2 – 3
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
“And if I go and prepare a place for you…” describes a place.
These verses along with the others that I mentioned describe heaven and hell as places.
As to the question of my ranting…
benji Says:
October 30th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Maury,
maybe if you had people reading and commenting on your own blog you wouldn’t have to squat on this one using it to rant and rave about a group of people you obviously are too afraid of to actually have a conversation with. Seriously, move along…
I am trying to engage in a conversation with Doug on the topic off our theological differences and he will not respond. My concern is with the emergent lack of belief in accountability and lack of belief that the scripture is God breathed. All that myself and people like Todd want to know is where Doug stands on basic systematic theological grounds. We are simply trying to understand what he believes.
Personally my concerns stems from the fact that so many people out there are looking for answers to many questions and they are turning to the emergent’ leaders like Doug Pagitt and Tony Jones who basically tell them not to worry about anything we are all going to spend eternity where ever and it will all be fine. That is absolutely NOT true.
The Holy Bible has ALL of the answers to all of our problems and questions, but we are not privileged to those answers UNLESS we repent of our sins and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and died for OUR sins and God resurrected Him on the third day.
I agree that there questions surrounding some secondary issues within the Biblical cannon, but not with regard to heaven or hell or the fact that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life; and “NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me”
Lastly to benji, I do not hide who I am or what I am; I know my sin. I sign all of my posts because I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for all that believe. Romans 1: 16.
I bear none of you ill will and pray that it is the Holy Spirit that speaks through me for God’s glory not mine.
Grace and peace to you all,
Maury
November 8th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Sssshhhhuuuuuu – that’s me breathing out after holding my breatht his whole time that Doug would post the chapter of the book he refered to up above and.or answer any of the questions posted here. Time to breath normal again….
November 11th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I wish Doug would post.
Let me break it down and play Melancthon to his Luther.
Heaven and Hell are not places. Heaven is not up there, somewhere…that would make it a big spaceship like the deathstar. Up is not up. because up from the south pole goes for a trillion light years away from the up of the north pole.
I don’t know doug’s belief in atonement or soteriology.
but if a good muslim dies, in my belief, based on what Luke says…
if being a “good muslim” means that he “loved the Lord (allah is just arabic word for theos or god) with all his heart soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself, he shall be saved.
paul said that if you confess jesus as your master/caesar/king and believe in your heart he rose from the dead, you shall be saved.
telling people the story of Jesus and HOW he said to live and how he saw god is the fastest way I know to find God.
but I meet people who have pyscho-socially “accepted” the dogma of christianity but I see little of Jesus in some of them.
I have felt the spirit in a godly jew. I don’t know if it was the human spirit or god’s spirit but I think when a human is full of wisdom/light/love they are full of God.
there is a judgment…
I do not think God will force people into something. If they want hell, they get hell. if you love wickedness and yourself rather than others as yourself…you will be in a bad way on judgement day. real bad.
does God end your existence?
do you spend eternity in the presence of God and it is painful?
i don’t think it is literally a place with worms or fire.
you can’t have worms that never die (eating corpses) and fire….they would fry up juicy!
is the language of jesus descriptive? literal? symbolic? or is it motivational? or simply a word picture?
there is no lake of fire. there are no streets of Gold.
but there is the glory/love/presence of God.
doug may be a universalist.
way of the master is exlcusivist.
I am inclusivist.\
i refuse to believe that the lakota sioux indians, for example, are all in hell because christians were too lazy to get to the midwest until 1700.
August 24th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Doug, can you define hell for me. I didn’t get a clear understanding from that conversation.