Too Much Time on Some People’s Hands
I was facebooked this today by Dave Sheldon. I had not seen it before.
Someone spent time putting it together.
The reference here is from a CNN interview I was part of on Yoga (posted below) where I argued that Yoga helps with stress. The other guy in the interview argued that if you want to relieve stress go to the Bible.
So this was posted by someone who thinks that I think the Bible is in competition with the Bible.
And someone who may not know that stress is a physical condition. And someone who may be so “platonic” that they hold that if there is something going on in your body you should fill your mind to deal with it. These are mind over matter people. So strange. Not sure where they got the picture of me, but it is so strange.
September 24th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Doug,
I spoke with you via e-mail about this a while back…and if I recall correctly, there was also another conversation that was recorded after the interview with one CNN’s people…and it was that conversation, along with the interview, that led some to believe that you were saying the Bible was not sufficient to help with stress. In fact, in the other recorded conversation, I believe you said something like, “Ya, if you want to relieve stress, just read the Bible”…in a sarcastic way. There is no doubt that exercise is good for the body, but when it comes to stress, there is no substitute for the Word of God. Didn’t the Apostle Paul have something to say about this? “Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, think on these things…and the God of peace will be with you.” Philippians 4:8-9.
September 24th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
The Bible is great for stress I guess but for me personally…sometimes it causes stress in the form of dissonance and sometimes the words from God serve as a great comfort and solace for me.
If the Bible is indeed all anyone needs to control physical and emotional manifestations of stress, I would also suggest that we use the Bible to treat hypertension, tachycardia, adrenal fatigue, cushings syndrome and migraine headaches…all of which are often caused by stress. Perhaps that will be part of the amazingly absurd universal health plan that Obama is pushing…speaking as a medical professional, I can tell you that it makes about as much sense.
September 24th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
I am not saying that the Bible is the only form of stress-relief, but I am saying that for Christians, who believe the Bible is the authoritative, divinely inspired Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16), there is no doubt that God’s Word should serve as a primary source for stress relief. As I have mentioned to Doug before, when one of my children was in the hospital for 7 months (chemo at 3 months of age, bone marrow transplant to follow and a whole host of other issues along the way), yoga did not get me through it…staying centered on the truth of God’s Word did. It was the most stressful time in my life and God, through the power of the Holy Spirit and His Word, kept me at peace. Of course we do not worship the Bible, but we do worship the ONE it points us to. When I have a headache, I take an advil…when I’m stressed, sometimes I go run…but there is no spiritual value to that. The only real spiritual value comes from a believer centering on the truth of God’s Word and living it out in their daily lives.
September 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
There is no spiritual value in running? I have found that God can speak to me while running or hiking or bird watching just as much as he can while reading the Bible. God is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine; limiting God to words on a page would cause me stress…
September 24th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I love God and I believe that the Bible is God’s way of telling us his story including the incredible gift of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And I am thrilled that God invites us to be part of the ongoing beauty of his story. However, I find that several things provide stress-relief much better than the Bible – a talk with a person created in the image of God, seeing something beautiful that God has created, the freedom that God has given us to run or exercise with yoga, but one of he greatest forms of stress-relief for a married person like me is sex with my spouse. There’s nothing more peaceful or spiritual than time with the person that God united me with as we have become one flesh. At least that works for me.
September 24th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
You are all missing what I am saying! Of course there is spiritual value through relationships, but what are Christian relationships grounded in??? The truth of God’s Word. Yes, God can speak to you while running and Yes, God can speak to you while exercising, and Yes, there is an amazing spiritual connection between a husband and wife, but God is the one who makes the act or relationship spiritual. Running is not spiritual in and of itself! Sex is not spiritual in and of itself! I am simply contending that human activities, such as yoga, running, stretching, sex, etc…are not spiritual in and of themselves. What I am saying is, “Our lives should be centered on God and His truth.” The primary way God speaks to His children is through His revealed Word. That is what we should be meditating on and seeking to live out in our lives.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Clearly there is a disconnected dichotomy in Jeremy’s thinking and many others as well. Why do you need to categorize and separate the Bible from other activities? If we are Christians is God not with us in all we are and do?
I practice yoga every Sunday morning with others in our church community and it is a great way to start my week, stretching and strengthening our bodies and minds in the presence of God. We end our time in meditation and it restores our souls.
God is so much bigger than the Bible and our limited minds that end up limiting God when we put such restrictive, definitive strictures around how to relieve stress or deal with any other topic.
I hope we can open our hearts and minds and live freely as ones who are filled with Holy Spirit and living our faith in truly unique ways as we are called according to God.
Namaste my Friends~
p.s. I encourage those who feel yoga threatens their faith to do a bit of research into the history of yoga. I think you will find in interesting and not in conflict with Christianity.
September 24th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Yoga is a Hindu ritual designed to empty your mind. The goal of the Christian life is to renew our minds through Jesus Christ.
Romans 12:2
September 25th, 2008 at 5:17 am
the picture reminds me of the time we hung out together. and i really enjoyed that. my best wishes.
September 25th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Once again, and I’m not sure how else to say it, but I am not the one trying to separate Scripture from activity. I am the one contending for it. The goal of the Christian life is not to empty your mind, but rather to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Transformation happens primarily through letting the “living and enduring Word of God”…the “living and active and sharp Word of God” transform our way of thinking so we can be transformed in our way of living (Rom. 12:1-2). Like I have said all along, I have no problem with exercise, but when you attach spiritual value to something that in and of itself is not spiritual…that is wrong and is not something a Christian should do. This whole thing started in relationship to yoga. I would love to have someone reveal to me how the history of yoga and the practice of yoga is consistent with orthodox Christianity. Nothing about the ancient practice and teaching of yoga even resembles what the Bible says we are to be about as Christians. Again, I am not saying a Christian cannot do yoga for exercise, I am simply saying that one should not attach spiritual value to something that is clearly not spiritual in and of itself.
September 25th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I’m not a theologian, and I don’t play one on YouTube. People were created w/ lots of different personalities, and not all of them experience God first and foremost through their minds and through texts: For since the creation of the world, God’s invisble qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen….I see God more clearly worshipping him on a mountain than I do opening a Bible in a pew. I don’t know that we can limit God from revealing Himself through something that a Pharisee would call “unreligious” or perhaps in our day, “unspiritual.” Some of us Christians struggle with our minds and find that most churches don’t help us w/ meditation. We find that being still and knowing who God is can be accomplished through yoga. Why box God in so that he is capable of renewing your mind ONLY or PRIMARILY through keeping our mind busy and focused on the Bible? Why not let him renew your mind through the beauty of His creation, the quiet meditation on his love, and a simple stretch, exhale, and feeling him through your body in present time? I guess I don’t buy that the primary way God speaks to his children is through the Bible. What a bummer for the early Christians, many of whom were illiterate. Of course, if the Bible is your only source of info for knowing God, then I guess you’re entitled to be right about everything
What if God were big enough to transform us, regardless of how we best digested His truth? Did Jesus attach spiritual value to something that was not seens as spiritual in and of itself? I rather like that he took the time to spit, make mud, and bring sight to a blind man.
September 25th, 2008 at 10:18 am
You are illustrating my point! You are quoting Scripture and refering to Scripture althroughout your entry. This is what I am talking about. Scripture should permeate our life. Again, how do we know how to worship? The Bible tells us “WHO” to worship and “HOW” to worship. I never said that we should only read the Bible in church. I said we are to meditate on the Word of God and as we are transformed in our thinking, we will in turn be transformed in our living. If life change is not the result of our study of Scripture, then we have missed the point altogether. The only reason the Word of God has any power is because there is the One and Only True and Living God behind it. Without “the” living God behind it, it is just a book! But the Resurrected, Living God, makes His Word alive and alive in His children! Experience should never trump truth…ALL experiences should be measured by the objective truth of God and His Word!
September 25th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Can God attach spiritual value to something that you do not see as spiritual in and of itself? Yes, and since you believe only the Bible and not experience, I’ve shown the error to you in the Bible. Those of us who have experienced this throughout our lives just get it. However, it’s difficult to explain how we “just get it,” unless we speak your language. I’d far prefer to say that God talks to me and shows me stuff and that stuff isn’t in the Bible, and it transforms me and sometimes kicks my ass….but I’d look like an idiot to you. Perhaps even in need of psychiatric care if I hear voices.
I’ve experienced transformation quite apart from my study of scripture. How can I convince you of that? Can I show you a before and after picture of my heart? Or, do you only see it if I show off my Sunday School awards? I just think we should applaud people who experience God as opposed to knocking down everyone who doesn’t get relief from stress by reading the Bible. It works for some, I agree, but thankfully, God is bigger than that. I wouldn’t want to minimize the relief that experiencing God through yoga brings to anyone and suggest that everyone relieve stress only through study of the Bible.
For further consideration: If God ever told you personally that the Bible was a lie, would you believe Him (experience), or would you debate Him with the Bible? Even the Bible presents God has compassion for people who need personal assurance in the physical realm. Why don’t you?
PS, you’re welcome to the last word. I think God gets annoyed when my desire to be right thwarts my ability to love, and I’m struggling w/ that. Peace. I perhaps should have just sent Doug my apologies that someone would spend so much time on such a hurtful picture and totally miss his heart. Someday the blind will see, but it will take more than slinging mud to bring that about.
September 25th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Once again, there is a disconnect and lack of understanding here…what I am saying is that Scripture and experience should go hand in hand. Any “spiritual experience” I have should be tested by Scripture. God would not allow me to have a spiritual experience that is contradictory to Him (His character, nature and being) or His Word. For a Christian to disagree with that is simply beyond my comprehension. Case in point, God would never tell me the Bible is a lie because it is His Word and thus He would be calling Himself a liar (which He cannot do).
Any way, I can see this discussion is somewhat pointless to continue, but as for the picture of Doug, I did not create it nor do I know who did, but the truth of the matter is that when Doug made the comments he did after the interview, he totally mocked the Word of God and its ability to help deal with stress…and that, as you would say, annoys God
September 25th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
If I remember correctly, Doug was responding to John MacArthur’s view that the Bible is the only form of stress relief a person needs. JM was arguing that Christians shouldn’t practice yoga because it is inherently anti-Christian. So when Doug offered his comment after the broadcast, he was reacting to JM’s absurd stance on the Bible as the sole means of relieving stress. And, if you watch the CNN broadcast, you’ll see that it’s Doug who calls on the Philippians 4 passage as a way of saying that there are a lot of “whatevers” in life through which we can seek God. And that means that God can use lots of “whatevers” to calm us, to heal us, to comfort us.
September 25th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I have watched the interview closely and that is not exactly what John MacArthur said…and like I have said and continue to say, the “whatevers” must be tested to the orginal source…which is clearly God and His Word. I believe God speaks through various whatevers, but the whatevers must be tied to truth (God and His Word). It is as simple as that.
September 25th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
I dunno who this Jeremy Freeman is but he sounds like the “platonic” literalist fundamentalist who makes Christianity divisive and unsavory to the world. As we all know “godliness is of little value but bodily discipline ensures salvation for both this life and the life to come.” He should shave a cross in his head and say things like, “I came not for peace but a sword…”
September 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Hahaha.
Sorry Doug, its still friggin funny.
also, cool denim jacket man!
September 25th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Strange and strangely entertaining…
Jeremy’s view of things seems to come from a misunderstanding of what the Bible really is – and from ignoring what the Bible says about itself.
Jesus said He was the Word. We need to meditate on Jesus. In whatever way works for us.
It’s not that complicated.
September 25th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
stonecoldcleric Says:
I dunno who this Jeremy Freeman is but he sounds like the “platonic” literalist fundamentalist who makes Christianity divisive and unsavory to the world…
ah yes, there’s a statement that rings with a chastened and humble epistimology..wait, wait…”I may not be certain about things but I am certain you are wrong”…ain’t that right, stonecold?? What are you new? What a shockingly “unifying” approach the ECM and it’s minions have fostered.
shelley pagitt Says:
“Clearly there is a disconnected dichotomy in Jeremy’s thinking and many others as well. Why do you need to categorize and separate the Bible from other activities?”…Is this your idea of NAMASTE??? Is that how you bow down to his divineness, by asserting that his thinking is flawed via a “disconnected dichotomy”?? Or is that statement only directed to those who truly understand (read: gnostic) and agree (read: cult)?
As part of your meditation do you stand among the couches and proclaim, “O God/Goddess, I thank you that I am not like one of the disconnected dichotomists”…pharisees of a different order, lady.
Pagitt, get control of her.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
We need to meditate on Jesus? I thought Jesus said to follow and obey Him and the Psalmist said, “Your Word I have meditated on day and night.” HUH? Interesting? Okay, oh bearer of wisdom, tell me what the Bible is and what is has to say about itself. Based on your comments above, I can only imagine how this will be answered and I am on the edge of my chair waiting to be enlightened
September 26th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Jeremy,
I think the problem here is that those of us who practice yoga as a form of relaxation and exercise don’t find it to contradict the Bible or Jesus’ teachings in any way. It is a way for us to “meditate” on the Word, as Shelley said. I’ve been to her yoga class and that is exactly what we do–she reads a passage of Scripture or a prayer and we listen and pray together. And no, we don’t stand on the couches–they’re in a different part of the church. And no, we don’t pray to some random goddess. We pray to the same God you pray to and read from the same Bible you read from. It follows in the line of “whatevers” because it is lovely and good. If we are drawing closer to God through yoga, then what’s the problem?
I know yoga is often used to “empty the mind” but I don’t think most people are so weak-minded that they truly empty their heads of all faith and belief just because they are in a warrior pose. It takes all of my mental energy to get my feet in the right place for pete’s sake. Anyway, I find that this argument for why yoga is somehow dangerous for Christians to be a pretty serious indictment on the level of intelligence Christians are assumed to have. Are we really so feeble-minded that we fall prey to evil when we start to relax?
For that matter, Christianity has taken all kinds of pagan–literally pagan–influences and made them expressions of the Christian faith. Christmas and Easter, the melodies for a whole host of beloved hymns, a number of the rituals we practice in our churches ever Sunday–they have come from other cultures, other religions, other “godless” people. They certainly aren’t found in the Bible and wouldn’t pass the “take it back to the source” test.
And there’s no need for those who disagree with Jeremy to be ugly and unkind.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Carla,
It’s morning and I’m less torqued than my previous comment, so please read this thru that filter and with your evident gentleness and graciousness.
To me (how’s that for a pomo start
, the comments thus far appear to demonstrate a lack of the bible in our Christian lives. For example that God is bigger than the bible or that God can speak outside of the bible more clearly. While true on some level, these statements defy the revelation of God himself as found in the Bible and is counter to even the first-century church’s active handling of the Old Testament. Jesus reveals himself to the Emmaus travellers specifically thru the Law and the Prophets. Paul declares that personal growth and equipping of the saints is found in the God-breathed scriptures (Peter believed his words to be that also). The Psalmist in the 119th Psalm expends 176 verses declaring, affirming, pleading for more of God as found in his testimonies, precepts, statutes, word, law and ways. 21st century christendom appears disinterested in the hard-work of handling scripture as literature, albeit super-natural literature to mine it’s accurate meaning and wants instead an experience via lectio divina with the kinesthetic after-glow.
It is a “te quo que” to say that since the modern church has accepted pagan elements and calls them holy, then Yoga should be fine also. Nope. Not buy’n it. If you’re assuming that Frank Viola has forever put to rest this notion, I would strongly disagree. Is there mixture in the body. You bet. Does it make it acceptable. Not at all.
I get that y’all want to have your yoga (as pure exercise) without the spiritual baggage. Mrs. Pagitt’s comment of namaste seems to tip the hand on a doctrinally-uninformed and syncretic worldview. I’m open to correction.
My hope is that this time, I was more gentle but firm and not so heavy-handed.
September 26th, 2008 at 7:52 am
REVISION:
To me (how’s that for a pomo start
, the comments thus far appear to demonstrate a lack of the bible in our Christian lives
SHOULD READ:
To me (how’s that for a pomo start
, the comments thus far appear to demonstrate a lack of an understanding of the bible in our Christian lives..
September 26th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Carla,
First of all, thanks for the tone of your post. I realize we probably will have to agree to disagree on this one, but it makes it easier to dialogue when humility is present. I hear what you are saying and I get what you are trying to do through the yoga exercise…and again, if yoga is viewed as purely exercise I do not have a real problem with it. I think it is great that you read and meditate on the Word of God while exercising…that was all I was trying to say. However, I would assume that when most people practice yoga, that is not the case. God does not want us to empty our minds, but rather fill it with Him and His Truth. He does not want to look to our inner-self, but rather deny self, take up our cross and follow Him. As Paul said, “I am crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.” God wants us to worship Him in spirit and in truth, which is why truth must always be present in “whatever” we are doing. All I have been trying to say in these posts is that “truth” (which is obviously both Jesus Christ and the divinely inspired written Word of God) should be connected to every aspect of our life. To miss that is to miss everything
September 26th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Max,
Great comments. I could not agree more about the necessity for the centrality of the Word of God in every aspect of life. What is most needed in the church today is correct handling, teaching, preaching and ultimately living of the Truth. There are answers, contrary to popular belief, and they are found in the “living, active and sharp” Word of God.
September 26th, 2008 at 10:07 am
This whole conversation is weird. It is like people are speaking different languages at each other.
I tend to be more conservative and cautious in my approaches to things like yoga and mediation, but realize that others may have more freedom in this area than I do.
Judge the practice by the fruit it produces.
September 27th, 2008 at 6:23 am
That “other guy” in the interview was well known pastor and theologian John MacArthur. His presence at this late date in history with his faithfulness to keep Christ central as the sumpreme authority that He is, is deeply appreciated by a good many people.
Prior to viewing the segment, I had never heard of you. What I did hear also was the conversation that followed between yourself and a woman in the studio. She called John “crazy” and you did not correct her. You did however receive the praise that she was lavishing on you.
I am sincerely hoping that this was a one time situation never to be repeated.
September 27th, 2008 at 7:51 am
Jeremy, you have done an eloquent job of articulating your point and defending the gospel. Some on here have done a good job of obfuscating it, but that is their fault, not yours. It is eye-opening (and sad) to see what happens when some stop renewing their minds and instead empty them. To modify Chesterton, “when people stop believing in God’s Word, they will believe in anything.”
September 27th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Doug,
I’m curious to know: how do you simply write things off as Platonic? I’ve heard you do this before, and it strikes me as somewhat odd. Rather than intelligently giving reasons for your dismissal, your just like “oh, that’s a platonic idea.” Shouldn’t you show us that Plato’s dualistic conception is bad, rather than just assuming it is so?
Also, just because a person has some semblance of a mind-body dualism does not make them Platonic. Don’t be hasty in lumping everyone into the same camp.
-Matt
September 29th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Most gracious God and Holy Father, I pray for forgiveness for my sin and short comings and ask that Your Holy Spirit would speak through me to bring praise and glory to You! I crucify my flesh, deny myself and take up my cross to follow you! Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and shall forever be, Kingdom without end! Amen!
shelley pagitt Says:
September 24th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
“God is so much bigger than the Bible and our limited minds that end up limiting God…”
What I find interesting about this post altogether, becomes clear in the above quote. Consider John 1:1-5.
John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (NAS)
To say that the Bible restricts God is an indictment of a fallible human mind. The Holy Bible, the “Word” of God is…
John 14:23-26 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (NAS)
God is eternal! The Word is eternal!
Matthew 5:17-18 17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (NAS)
Praise God, the Alpha and Omega! Some would say that “indictment” is a harsh word to use but I use it because I believe that guilt and conviction of sin are at the root of the “emergent” church belief that the Bible is restricting God. The Bible is not restricting God it is restricting the “emergent” church.
Lastly I unashamedly stand upon the solid rock of the “Word” and the salvation it delivers through my Lord Jesus the Christ and end with this for those who so dangerously believe the Bible restricts God and because I too have a fallible mind and therefore must rely on scripture and the Holy Spirit to speak.
Revelation 22:9-21 I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.” 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (NAS)
September 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculaltions of every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ . . . 2 Cor. 10:4-5
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? 1 Cor. 10:21-22
I am the Lord your God . . . You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Ex. 20:2-4.
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:43 am
Already got deleted once but I feel my comment was perfectly relevant, so here goes again. Hopefully reworded gently enough to pass under the moderator’s radar.
shelley pagitt said:
“I practice yoga every Sunday morning with others in our church community and it is a great way to start my week, stretching and strengthening our bodies and minds in the presence of God. We end our time in meditation and it restores our souls.”
she also said:
“I encourage those who feel yoga threatens their faith to do a bit of research into the history of yoga.”
I’m currently assistant minister in a church in these parts of the world (Asian Subcontinent) where Hinduism and Yoga started. In particular I’ve been reading the Upanishads lately and astounded at many of the truths about God that they found simply by looking at nature and at the state of reality, and drawing lessons about what God must be like. However, Yoga is not one of these simple truths that early Hinduism abounds with. Instead, Yoga is a discipline made for centering the mind on the existence of god within you, “Atman”, the part of “Brahman” that we can see within our human state. It involves not just stretching and flexing but also meditating upon the sacred word, OM, which encompasses the three states of consciousness and allows one to free themselves from imprisonment a specific state. Instead, one grasps all three states and is able to transcend them, gaining knowledge of Brahman (the Hindu’s version of Buddhist enlightenment) and escaping the law of Karma in the next death.
My point is, if this is not what you are practicing every Sunday morning with your friends (and I certainly hope it is not), then why call it Yoga? Just for the sake of controversy? Why not just call them stretches and flexes, exercising, or whatever else? Why go out of your way to make an apology for a system that is clearly NOT compatible with Christianity, denies any form of the centrality of Christ, and preaches that god is found within all, that in essence you ARE God?
It would be easier to just say you stretch on Sunday morning with your friends, that you find it a great way to focus on God, and that you think it’s sad that any form of stretching and flexing has been baptized as “Yoga” in our society, since Yoga specifically denotes a spiritual practice that has nothing to do with what you are in fact doing.
Just a few thoughts from someone who has done the research.
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Whomever dportela is…Great Comments! This could not have been said any better. They need to simply call it what it is. If your comment is indeed again deleted, it just continues to reveal opposition to truth. I have somewhat given up on dialogue with those in the EC, due to the fact that I cannot find many who want to deal with truth, as you can probably see from my posts on this blog. For a “movement” that prides itself on conversation, the conversation seems to only be “appreciated” from those who come to the table embracing mystery, ignorance, personal experience and no absolutes. The only reason I am at all trying to dialogue is because I feel so much of it could be corrected with good, solid biblical teaching…of course that would mean the Bible must be viewed as the divinely, inspired Word of God…which of course is in high question in the EC. It is simply a sad reality that so many are being led astray from the truth of God’s Word!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Daniel,
See my comment above. Also, keep in mind, from as best as I can tell, Doug does not believe in a literal hell. Which again, comes from his unique interpretation of the Word of God. You ought to hear what Brian McLaren believes about the Cross…he calls it “False advertisiting for God.” Talk about a slap in the face to God and His redemptive, saving work on the Cross. Again, it is a sad reality how people can so loosely interpret the Word of God and have so many people buying into such awful theology. However, I encourage you to try and continue to be gracious as you dialogue. It is frustrating when comments are deleted and questions are left unaswered, but just keep speaking truth and doing it with a balance of wisdom and grace. Hang in there. Sola Scriptura!
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
@freeje – I too feel Daniel’s frustration. When this whole emergent/ce/cy thing started a few years ago, I was one of the champions of some of these ideas. I was in the middle of a conservative denomination, trying to get its pastors and leaders to see the value of joining the conversation and bringing our points of view and theological tradition to the table, throwing it in the mix.
I think the problem is that I was introduced to the whole emergen(whatev) idea by pastors who were themselves already theologically balanced, who believed in the inspiration of scripture but were also interested in renewing dialogue across lines that had been built into walls over centuries. This was a problem because they sweetened the idea for me and made it seem like less of a theological coup than it really has been.
The sad truth that I have found, exemplified by the deletion of our comments on this site, is that the emergen(…) movement (in its current iteration) is no more interested in open dialogue than the different traditions were for hundreds of years. They don’t want to hear from those who don’t agree with them, and will reach for the squelch button as soon as they appear. They are unable to dialogue with people who hold strong convictions in the areas of scriptural inspiration and infallibility, because they have no common ground to build on. The “open discussion” and dialogue has turned into a clique for those who sign onto the project without any preconditions or pre-existing beliefs.
I’m still 100% willing to sit down and talk about theology, church life, ethics, morality, whatever, with emergen(insert suffix) pastors, and I know many others are as well. They just need to be willing to do so. And as far as I can see, they’re too busy patting each other on the back and creating their own loosely held denomination/tradition, which unfortunately likens itself to neo-orthodoxy more and more with each passing day, book, sermon, and article.
My prayer is that God will bless his Church, all of it, that He will break down barriers of stubbornness and pride and that He will allow us to seek Him together, studying His Word and engaging each other to find out how He has made Himself present in our lives. Perhaps it’s time for a new movement that goes back to those ideals, rather than what the EC has become today.
October 9th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Well, I haven’t checked back on this post for a while and clearly there has been some discussion!
David, Maury, Matt, Darius, Jeremy and any others who are participating in the ‘yoga talk’, I extend a warm invitation to the National Pastors Convention in San Diego this February. I have led a morning yoga session for the past few years and would love to have you join me as an active participant or an observer. I don’t much care what you call it, I learned yoga at a local health club years ago and in honor of the tradition, that is what I call it.
My favorite yoga is called Ashtanga and I mostly practice the fitness aspect (asana/postures-#3) and the breath control (pranayama-#4) although there are 8 parts to yoga-
Ashtanga Yoga
The eight limbs of Ashtanga Yoga areThe eight limbs of Ashtang Yog are:-
1. Yama Social Disciplines
Ahimsa Non Violence
Satya Truth
Asteya Non Stealing
Brahmacharya Self control
Aparigraha Non Hoarding
2. Niyama Personal Disciplines
Saucha Cleanliness
Santosha Contentment
Tapas Great Effort
Svadhyaya Introspection
Ishwara Pranidhana Faith in God
3. Asana Postures
4. Pranayama Breath Control
5. Pratyahara Withdrawal of Senses
6. Dharana Concentration
7. Dhyana Meditation
8. Samadhi Union
I have 4 children (15, 16, 17 and 18 years old at the moment) and the younger two are adopted out of foster care and a very troubled past. When one of them became violent toward me years ago, I truly needed to figure out how to manage my overwhelming internal and external stress. As a devoted Christian and a faithful follower of Jesus, I can practice yoga and the holy spirit is amazingly present in those moments. Do I seek to follow anything resembling Hinduism? NO! Am I worried that I am on a ‘dangerous path’? NO! I have faith that God is leading me and will show me how best to lead a faithful and healthy life.
, I have learned that we are not trying to “empty our minds” but to “allow thoughts to surface, acknowledge them, and then dismiss them for the time of meditation”. This allows our thoughts to slow down so we can be truly present and connected in mind, body and spirit. I’m not going for ‘enlightenment’ here, just a few minutes of peace and quiet.
Anyway, I am speaking of experience and faith and most of you are speaking of theology. Please join me sometime and maybe we can have a chat afterward.
p.s. A small point of difference Miss Carla,
p.p.s. A wonderful book called Christian Yoga by Nancy Roth (an Episcopalian priest) is a GREAT resource for those of you who might be interested in more info.
October 14th, 2008 at 4:15 am
Shelley, thanks for your reply. I’m glad you mentioned you “mostly” practice the fitness aspects of Yoga.
Keep in mind I don’t just agree with MacArthur either. I think that beautiful expressions of who God is and of His creation can be found everywhere, just as Romans 1 tells us and just as we see every day all around us. I even believe we can take practices that were developed entrenched in a different worldview and adapt them to be suited to a Christian worldview. I’m thinking here not just of Yoga but of Karate, Kung-Fu, and many other disciplines which started off as intensely entwined with spiritual teachings that were contrary to what the Scripture teaches us about life, the world, and the centrality of Christ.
But Doug didn’t make a distinction between the physical and spiritual aspects of Yoga. He didn’t describe it as an appropriation into a Christian worldview. Instead, it seemed he was defending Yoga in all its forms, in and of itself, as a great way to have a whole and complete life. He didn’t mention the friction between the teachings of Hindu Yoga and the teachings of Scripture, saying instead that it was all good just because its goals were the same with the “Jesus agenda.”
But when Doug was asked if Jesus would have been all right with Yoga, he didn’t have an answer, and segued into a comparison between that question and a question about pastors and suits. I know these things are harrowing and he was probably nervous, but wouldn’t that be one of the fundamental, first questions to be asked about any sort of practice with a different religious provenance? Fine, don’t word the question as “What would Jesus do?”, word it as “Knowing what God has been pleased to teach me about Himself through His Word, and about Christ, would it be OK to do what I am proposing?” It’s in essence the same question, and an important one at that.
The problem here is that if you do that and you send people out to Yoga centers with your blessing, the Yoga you will find in many of those places is absolutely *not* the fitness aspect of Yoga that you yourself practice.
I think that if in the interview Doug had said the following, things would have gone much differently: “Listen, I recognize that Yoga, as a Hindu practice, teaches something very different from what the Bible does. But what in the West is usually termed ‘Yoga’ is the fitness/physical aspect of that practice. That’s the part that we practice, the fitness part, and we think it’s fantastic and completely compatible with Christianity, because we use it to focus our minds on Christ. The fact that someone of another faith came up with it doesn’t bother us because we don’t buy into the worldview associated with the full practice of Yoga.”
But he didn’t say that, and from what he *did* say in the interview, it’s unclear if the above is actually what Doug believes at all. I tried to piece together the alternate answer above from your posts to this thread, and there is a stark contrast with what it says and what was said in the interview.
The bottom line is that both Doug and John were presented with a stellar opportunity to discuss what living a whole and centered life means and what the ultimate answers are to dealing with the stresses of life. John made use of it, clearly explaining what the gospel was and that in the bigger picture a life with Jesus will be more whole, centered, and stress-free than any amount of physical exercise or posture-enhanced contemplation could ever be. Doug, on the other hand, said basically that there’s no problem at all with Yoga in any of its forms, and missed the opportunity to provide lifelong answers to the question of stress, even mocking John backstage for his attempt to do so. And that’s a real shame, especially when considering Paul’s words in Ephesians 4:
“As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”
Facetiously “apologizing” for another believer’s clear presentation of the gospel and mocking him and his views to others is clearly not in the spirit of humility, gentleness, and unity.
October 20th, 2008 at 11:56 am
The world view of the “emergent” church is nothing more than relativism pure and simple. They don’t want to deal with absolutes, because with absolutes comes ACCOUNTABILITY!
The emergent’ want to skip merrily through life saying that they are Christian but not feel guilty about their chosen life styles which are clearly un-biblical.
Tell me Doug, if you feel so confident that your emergent world view is correct, what would be your reaction if Osama bin Laden and his crew strolled into your circle of couches and said we would like to be a part of your cohort? Would you accept them or turn them over to the authorities? Your view states that there are many ways to God right? Osama bin Laden and his crew fully believe that Allah justifies what they did at the World Trade center and according to your view you would welcome them. Am I wrong?
What the emergent’ tend to leave out when discussing the attributes of God is that God is just. God owes us nothing and we owe Him everything; the simple fact that God allows us to draw breath is a testament of His grace. God established His law and Christ came to fulfill the law; Matt 5:17. God’s laws are absolute and we can do nothing apart from accepting God’s gracious gift of Christ’s death and resurrection for our salvation period.
Accountability Doug. By the emergent account we are beholden to nothing but ourselves and how we choose to manifest Christ in this world which is plain and simple blasphemy and denies the very being of the Trinity. Glory be to God the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now and shall forever be.
ACCOUNTABILITY!
October 20th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
FYI ecomarz = Maury Ross
http://sanctified-by-grace.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Just some quick points….(I realize this is an old post and doubt many will see but…)
“Anyway, I am speaking of experience and faith and most of you are speaking of theology. Please join me sometime and maybe we can have a chat afterward.” Quoted from Shelly above (I assume Doug’s wife)
Not sure if you noticed but your husband did list this post under “theology” on his blog page.
Second, the other thing missing in all this is the audio Doug taped after the camera stopped rolling and he was talking with a TV person at the station he was at (if I remember correctly, she was not aware she was being taped…I may be wrong). It use to be on his blog and then taken down once people did not seemed ammused by the rude comments made about John McArthur. I’m not a big fan of McArthur but I am also not a fan of trashing a brother in Christ in a Junior High fashion either.
Outside of that, I have never studied Yoga enough to have a position outside of these. I do think that the beginning of the topic is theological and experience is a distant second. I’ll look into it more when I get some time.